Sump Complete, Pics added.

[~RuSh~]

I'm going to be building a sump/refugium for my 29g salt tank. I've never done anything like this before. I will need help. This will probably be a good thread for anyone else thinking about utilizing a sump who has no idea where to start, because that's where I am as well. So let's get to it.

I have a 29g tank that I want to build a sump for. The sump will be a 20g high, dimensions 24x16x12. The reason I need it to be so large is for the refugium. I want it to be substantial and for that I need the larger size tank. Not to mention a 10g sump wouldn't be able to hold equipment or anything. I haven't decided if I'm going to build an overflow, or just buy an overflow box. I am leaning toward buying an Eshopps OB because I'm so new to building anything that building the overflow and the sump is a bit overwhelming for me.

I want the sump to have a bubble trap, I want it to hold my heater and protein skimmer. *My protein skimmer is a HOB (CPR Bakpak), will that be a problem? I need enough room in the refugium for at least one large piece of live rock.

So questions... what size pump should I be looking at? What do I use to divide the sump? Acrylic? Where can I get that? What should the spacing between dividers be to allow for proper flow? What size tubing should I be looking at?

And here's my attempt at a paint drawing. No measurements or numbers yet because I just don't know... HELP.

[Kmuda]

Explain to me why you feel a need for the complicated water flow (hence the need for a divided sump)?

What's wrong with an overflow emptying into a simple (undivided) 20 gallon aquarium, underneath, that is holding everything you want it to hold, with a return pump sending water (and refugium bred critters) back into the main tank.

It's what I do on my Oscar tank. Substitute the sponges with live rock, the Magnum 250 HOT with your protein skimmer, and you've accomplished what you wanted to accomplish without all of the build complexities and cost. You just have one aquarium on top (your main tank) of another (your sump) with water flowing between them.

[~RuSh~]

I guess the main reason would be the refugium. I'd like to employ a deep sand bed and I can't just set the pump on top of the sand bed. The macro algae would probably be sucked up into the pump as well if they were in the same chamber. That, and I would like a bubble trap to help reduce salt creep on the tank edges and light.

[~RuSh~]

I actually like the design of this sump (http://www.melevsreef.com/sump.html). That's a 14 gallon so the same should be achievable in a 20g.

[Kmuda]

I just see a lot of wasted space. 1/3 of the sump basically serves no purpose other than a place to put the return pump.

If you look at my sump, the return pump is the blue thingie with the suction cups, at the top of the tank. It would not be sitting on the sand. Otherwise, I don't see how it sitting on the bottom in one corner is going to result in it sucking up anymore macro algae than it would at the top of the same chamber.

As far as the bubble trap goes, that would certainly require the use of baffles and the division of the sump.

A good concepts article I found is here:

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

If I were you, I would focus my research on the benefits/necessity of using bubble traps. I'm finding conflicting reports. Many feel like I do, that dedicating 1/3 of the sump space to create one is utilizing space with little gain.... that the space could be better utilized for something else.

[~RuSh~]

A bubble trap isn't necessary, but I want one. Dealing with the microbubbles and constant salt creep is a pain. The salt accumulates over the light cover, on the sides of the tank, and on equipment. If you don't stay on top of it, the hard crusty concentrations can fall either off the tank down to the floor, or back into the tank fluctuating the salinity. It isn't a necessity and it isn't necessarily a game breaker, but I want it... if at all possible.

[Kmuda]

I want it... if at all possible.

That's the most important part. If I listened to everyone else I would not have all of the filtration on my tanks that I have. Initially, it was there because "I wanted it".

Looks like you have the design. It's just a matter of implementing it. The two baffles that are flush with the bottom are no brainers. Pieces of glass (or Plexi) cut to fit and siliconed in place. Get your measurements right and any glass shot can cut the glass for you. It's not expensive to have them do so. The other piece that is raised is a bit more difficult. If it were me, not being a DIY guru, I would likely find something to use as small columns, underneath that piece, so that it was not reliant only upon my silicone work to remain in place.

Some small plastic blocks of some nature can be glued into place to keep things stable on the sides of all baffles.

Is the 20 gallon you intend to use acrylic or glass? If acrylic, everything can be bonded into place. Glass is more difficult, but cheaper.

[OLroy]

Rush, here is something I can def help you out on and draw a picture on paint haha. To comment quickly on it there are two kinds of sumps you can set up one is the combo with the fuge and the other is purly for macro algae. the fuge you know already but the macro algae isn't talked about much. Instead of filling the middle compartment with a DSB and rock rubble along with the algae you would just put the algae in there with a power head and allow it to roll around and get as big as the compartment and then cutting it down to the size of a soft ball again thus exporting the phosphate and nitrate the algae has trapped in itself. Now as for the bubble trap it is IMO exteremly important when you are using Macro Algae and a skimmer it causes a lot of mess down in the sump which you do not want to deal with in your display, also the bubbles that come out with the water of your skimmer are not benifical to your tank so you want to try and keep them from going into your display. I've drawn up the sump design I am currently using and it's working great. There is a reason for the order of things and IMO the best set up for a marine sump.


Now when building your sump you will want to take a quick measurement of how much water your display will drain into your sump when the power goes off and you'll want to make sure you have room for double that in your sump. The easiest way to do this is to follow this formula: LxWxH(H being the number of inches your display will drain from the overflow box so most likely 1-2inches.)/237. So for my tank that would be 36*18*1/27= 2.7 gallons so I wanted to have roughly 6 gallons of sapce in my sump left over after I build the walls dividing the tank. I also only made the return area as small as possible to first and formost save space and secondly as a back up incase my siphon ever stopped working. My display can handle my return section of my sump 2 times before it overflows onto the floor.

Last note you'll want your skimmer first and fuge second because once the water passes through the fuge it'll have the nuturients you want in the water and the skimmer will take them out before sending them to the display which I find a little counter productive. If you have any questions on how to build the sump let me know it's SUPER easy.

**Edit** you also need to take into consideration the water level required by your skimmer. I do not remember the kind of skimmer you use but I know most require at least 6" **Edit**

[~RuSh~]

So just a little looking around and I've found these Overflow boxes. They come pretty highly recommended and I think I might go with one of these, or one of the Eshopps OB's. What size would I need? I suppose it depends on what size pump I go with...

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=23781

[Kmuda]

You are going to want the smallest overflow you can get. You don't want a 600GPH overflow on a 20 gallon tank.

With overflows, you run the risk of too slow a flow which can break the siphon, or prevent the siphon from becoming properly established. My overflow is rated at 300GPH and I run probably about 150-200gph through it.

I absolutely recommend the lifter pump to go with the CPR overflows.

I also use these on my outflow into the main tank. Makes it easier to ensure the outflow is above the water line, which is an essential safety factor.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 4680&rel=1

The Quite One 1200 pump is what I use in several applications. No issues with them other than I broke the threaded base on one attempting to remove an overtightened ball valve.

[OLroy]

You need to make sure you'll have enough water feeding your skimmer as well. Look at the manual and see the flow rating it needs. I would think around 300gph wouldn't be horrible, we have to remember flow rate is a big difference in saltwater and in most cases the more flow the better and depending on the way you have your spray bar you need to remember all the holes aren't pushing 300gph the more holes the less flow. You can always restrict the flow going back into your tank with a ball valve attached to the return pump line, as I have done with mine I'll get around to showing you a picture of my set up sooner or later . Also what kind of set up are you planning to do with your sump?

[~RuSh~]

The plan is to do a refugium. I know this is moving slow but I'll be picking up a tank here soon and then I'll really get moving on it. Should I use glass dividers or acrylic? Which would be easier?

[Kmuda]

If the tank is acrylic, use acrylic. If the tank is glass, I would probably use glass, although you could probably just as easily use acrylic here as well. Easier to work with (cut). I'm just not sure how well acrylic can be glued to glass.

As I think about what you are trying to do, I would not attempt to make permanent baffles. I would glue some guides into place and just slide the baffles into place so that they could easily be removed. For the one "raised" baffle, just glue some blocks to the bottom that lifts that section up. Understand what I am saying? At least this gives you more flexibility should you decide to change things up.

[OLroy]

I would use acrylic, that's what I did on my glass tank. Just make sure it's 100% silcone you are using and nothing else such as fast drying or whatever. Don't get fooled into paying 15$ for a tube of "aquarium" safe. Just as long as it says 100% silcone on the tube you're good. Also if you go with Kman's idea it might take up more room than you're willing to lose. You can always go back with a razor blade and take them out if you don't like it, it really isn't hard to do.

For tools all you need is a square, tape measure and a scoring knife and you're good to go with an acrylic sheet. Much easier to work with than glass.

[~RuSh~]

Acrylic it is. I prefer something that will allow for some mistakes so glass probably isn't the way to go for me. So where could I get some acrylic sheets? Just like menards or lowes or home depot?

[Kmuda]

Looks like Lowes has it.

http://www.lowes.com/pl_Yes_4294836009_ ... plexiglass

I still like my idea about gluing in a few blocks to act as guides instead of trying to seal in the whole sheet. Four 2"x1" blocks (per baffle) that are no more than 1/2" thick would do it.

You would use the same "blocks" to raise the middle sheet for water to flow underneath (that particular sheet). These blocks would be glued at the desired height (on the side of the glass), so that this sheet sits on top of the blocks (make sense??).

Takes all of the skill and workmanship out of the picture while potentially making it more sturdy than a silicone job.

[~RuSh~]

Now when building your sump you will want to take a quick measurement of how much water your display will drain into your sump when the power goes off and you'll want to make sure you have room for double that in your sump. The easiest way to do this is to follow this formula: LxWxH(H being the number of inches your display will drain from the overflow box so most likely 1-2inches.)/237. So for my tank that would be 36*18*1/27= 2.7 gallons so I wanted to have roughly 6 gallons of sapce in my sump left over after I build the walls dividing the tank. I also only made the return area as small as possible to first and formost save space and secondly as a back up incase my siphon ever stopped working. My display can handle my return section of my sump 2 times before it overflows onto the floor.

OK so following that formula it would apply to my tank: 30x12x1/237 = 1.518 gallons So I'll need roughly 3 gallons of 'space' left once my sump is running... that doesn't sound like much. So how high should I make the first baffle? And how high should I make the following baffles? Obviously slightly shorter, but I'd just like a guidline to follow. I'd like to get this up and running in the next month or so if possible. I might be picking up the tank and acrylic this weekend and doing some cutting and gluing. After I have that part set up I'll need to choose a OB and a sump pump but for now lets focus on whats in front of me - the measurements and cutting.

**Edit** you also need to take into consideration the water level required by your skimmer. I do not remember the kind of skimmer you use but I know most require at least 6" **Edit**

I have a CPR BakPak skimmer. 6 inches of what? Width? The overflow/skimmer area will have to be fairly wide if it's going to hold my skimmer... Should I make sure it just fits and have that be the width of the overflow area?

[OLroy]

Keep all the baffles the same height except for the bubble trap, they do not need to be smaller than the last. Sorry I didn't make that other point very clear. Most skimmers require an 'ideal' depth to run. So when I said 6" I meant 6" of water depth. The HOB skimmer however will already be at 'ideal' as soon as you get it to run. The reasoning behind this is most skimmers that you or I would ever think about spending the money on draw the air in from a tube that's attached to the water pump. If the tube is too deep it won't get any air if it's too shallow it'll get too much.

So to answer your questions, make all the sections as high as you want the water level the whole time. We're not making a wet dry sump so you want to get water volume. You do not need to worry about the water not going to a specific part of the sump as it'll over flow into one section once the other is too full. If you have anymore questions lettme know.

[~RuSh~]

The the last baffle in the bubble trap should be a tad bit shorter?

Otherwise I'm planning to make fairly tall baffles, allowing for 3 gallons of water above them correct?

[OLroy]

The last baffel should be the same, and trust me you will want it to be. That's the one section that you actually notice evaporation, because it will never be as full as the rest of the sump unless you just topped it off. Yes you want 3 gallons minium of space above the rest. I'd go with a tad more 3.2gallons if you can figure out the math.

[~RuSh~]

Ok, sorry but I'm still a bit confused then -

Keep all the baffles the same height except for the bubble trap

So all the baffles should be the same exact height?

And what happens if my skimmer pump hangs too high? I mean, if I want to allow for 3.2 gallons of space then the water level at it's highest can only be so high - what if the skimmer pump is already above the water line at that point?

[OLroy]

To clarify all baffels are the exact same height. The only one that is different is the middle of the bubble trap that needs to go from the top of the tank to about 2 inches from the bottom. (little tip use CD cases stacked on eachother to help with that part) The Skimmer I don't really know to tell you the truth. You might have to hang it off the first baffel insde the tank instead of off one of the side walls if there isn't a good enough water height. I guess this is where having one section taller than the rest would come into play, however, I've never done that so I don't know how well it will work with regards to sound. You might get a waterfall sound if you make one section higher than the others. It will also be a little more of a PITA to figure out how much room you have in the sump once everything is said and done.

[~RuSh~]

OK Olroy, I gotchya. Thanks for the clarification.

As for the skimmer, I think we should be ok, I took a look last night at the pump and it sits down a good 4-5 inches down into the tank. I'm hoping that will be deep enough to be submerged and still allow for the 3.2 gallons off drain space. If not, the skimmer will have to stay up top on the display tank. Right now my priority is to make room in the display by getting rid of that one huge chunk of LR and putting it into the sump.

So this acrylic... do i just use a scoring knife to cut it or do I need something else. I have almost no power tools except a few drills so if I have to use a saw of some kind I'll need to plan for it.

Lets get down to the pump and overflow box. What size mag drive do you recommend? and to pair with the pump, what size overflow box?

[OLroy]

Scoring knife is what I used to make mine. Make sure you're not a little princess when it comes to actually making the scores or it'll take 1000 passes You won't break the acrylic by pushing too hard. Also when you go to snap it as long as you have the score all the way to both edges you again don't need to worry about it snapping badly it'll work. The first two snaps you do are scary lol

The return pump is really depended on the over flow box. What is it rated and also how much flow do you want to come back into the tank. With your tank being much smaller than mine I wouldn't think of using a Mag 5 but maybe a 3? Depending on your overflow box and head height you might even be able to get away with a maxijet. Another thing you need to think of is are you going to be making a spary bar or are you going to have a nossel and kind of like another power head as the return? That will also effect how big of a return pump you'll want.

[~RuSh~]

The smallest overflow that CPR sells is 300gph (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=23781)
The eshopps overflow PF nano does 200gph (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... atid=18358)


The eshopps overflow is half the price of the CPR... mostly, that makes me nervous... I definitely want a quality overflow box... Suggestions? Advice?