NOOB SUMP HELP

[Kage17]

Hey guys,

So I have a lead on a 125gal I may be able to pick up for free form a guy at work, just the tank no drilled holes no nothing, plane Jane 5 pieces of glass glued together bada-bing bada-boom.

Current:

-40 Gal tank
-Emperor 280 Biowheel filter
-Magnum HOT Canister using the Micron Filter
-150W Heater
-Tetra Whisper 40 air pump

So I am totally noob to sumps but I would like to build one for my 125 out of my 40 and will be bulding the stand for the 125 from scratch so I have no predetermined headaches with that. Can I reuse any of my existing equiptment? What additional things will I need?

I'm having trouble sifting through the internet as so many people have their opinions if anyone has reliable links they've used to build theri sumps or anyone who's built a sump wants to chime in I'd very much appreciate it.

[~RuSh~]

My first question would be this: Are you planning on drilling the 125g for overflows? Or are you planning on using an overflow box?

[Kage17]

I will be needing an overflow box of some sort, the tank does not have holes and I am not going to risk drilling them

[~RuSh~]

Sounds good. Overflow box needed.

What type of design are you planning on for the sump? Typical three chamber sump? You'll need a return pump and either glass or acrylic baffles...

[~RuSh~]

This is my sump build thread.
viewtopic.php/f,20/t,85688/

EDIT - This was for a saltwater tank so the refugium won't be needed for your plans, but the meat of the project will be the same or similar.



And this is Jon M's wet/dry sump build.
viewtopic.php/f,20/t,84256/

[Kage17]

Sounds good. Overflow box needed.

What type of design are you planning on for the sump? Typical three chamber sump? You'll need a return pump and either glass or acrylic baffles...

See that's the thing as far as this goes I guess I don't understand how a sump even works to begin with and I can't seem to find something that breaks the function of it down anywhere, I can only seem to find people going this is my sump tadaa! I don't understand how they function to begin with to try and pick a system and figure out the workings of the set up.

[~RuSh~]

Ok, no problem.

A sump serves two main functions - filtration and increased water volume. Both are of great benefit to you as a fish keeper. Basically a sump is system that draws water down from the main tank (display tank) into another containter - this can be a rubbermaid tub, another tank, or I've even seen brute garbage cans used in large systems. In your case, the Overflow box is what will be used to draw the water from the display to the sump itself. From there you can either create divided sections and customize your own filtration. Using large floss pads for mechanical filtration, Bioballs for biofiltration or pot scrubbies (which are much cheaper), and you can also use polyfil pads or chemipure, carbon, or any other chemical filtration. The dividers (baffles) allow the water to flow from one end of the tank to another increasing the efficiency of the filtration - ensuring all of the water goes through all of your sections of filtration. You can also move your heater down to the sump and get rid of extra equipment hanging on the display tank which is nice. In the last section of the sump you want a pump that will return water from the sump to the display tank. Theoretically (and depending on what type of media you used for filtration) your water in this section will be free of debris and crystal clear ready to go back in to the main tank.

[Kage17]

So essentially you have a siphon on one side drawing water to the sump tank and a pump returning to the tank? If so how do you would you prevent a catastrophe if the power went out and the sump pump was out of power that seems like a huge draw back? Also the biggest question I have is based around that filtration. Do you then have to have enough filtration/heat/air for the whole tank or just the sump tank's size? For my situation do I need filtration for a 40 (sump) or enough for a 125 (tank)?

Thanks for you help Rush, sorry if this is 2nd grade fish keeping for you haha but I really do apprecaite your pateince and info.

[Venom]

I won't lie. I might be stalking this thread and getting ideas into my head.

If the new 55 has a cabinet stand I may very well attempt this...
Even some "experienced" fish keepers have never built a sump and are complete novice at it.

[Kage17]

Haha well thanks for the encouragement Venom, I've only been fish keeping since mid January so I feel pretty noob asking questions sometimes . Be it that you are stalking this, if a sump is the route I do actually go I plan on making a full DIY thread chronicling my failures and eventual sucess...I hope...lol

[Tom]

So essentially you have a siphon on one side drawing water to the sump tank and a pump returning to the tank? If so how do you would you prevent a catastrophe if the power went out and the sump pump was out of power that seems like a huge draw back? Also the biggest question I have is based around that filtration. Do you then have to have enough filtration/heat/air for the whole tank or just the sump tank's size? For my situation do I need filtration for a 40 (sump) or enough for a 125 (tank)?

A critical part of any sump design is that the siphon side be designed so that if power is lost. you have enough room in the sump to hold the water that will siphon out of the main tank until the water is below the level of your overflow and the siphon is broken.
Depending on the type of return flow outlet you employ, you also may have to make sure you have a mechanism to prevent the water from back siphoning through the return pump when loses power as well.

[~RuSh~]

So essentially you have a siphon on one side drawing water to the sump tank and a pump returning to the tank? If so how do you would you prevent a catastrophe if the power went out and the sump pump was out of power that seems like a huge draw back? Also the biggest question I have is based around that filtration. Do you then have to have enough filtration/heat/air for the whole tank or just the sump tank's size? For my situation do I need filtration for a 40 (sump) or enough for a 125 (tank)?

Thanks for you help Rush, sorry if this is 2nd grade fish keeping for you haha but I really do apprecaite your pateince and info.

Overflows are designed so that the only water they drain is water that is forced over the lip of the overflow box. It is a siphon, but if your return pump stops, the water level in the display tank stops rising, therefore stopping water from entering the overflow. An overflow box can only siphon out what goes into it.

There are ways flooding can occur however.
Scenario 1 - Power to your return pump fails, or the return pump itself fails. When this happens, all the water above the pump flows back down into the sump via gravity. Since the return nozzle or spray bar is almost always submerged, water will keep siphoning out of the display tank into the sump or onto your floor until that siphon is broken - how much water is siphoned out depends on how deep you have the return nozzle or spray bar submerged. This catastrophe is called a reverse siphon. To avoid this, most people drill a small hole into the return nozzle or spray bar just above the water level in the display tank. This way if you have a power outage the hole will allow air to be sucked into the return breaking the siphon stopping water from flowing into the sump.

Scenario 2 - Most overflow boxes work by continuous siphon - that is they are primed so that water is constantly held in a position where water is drained passively or by gravity. This is a delicate position so many overflow boxes use a lifter pump to assist. (This description may be somewhat confusing if you have never used an overflow box - the concept however, should make sense.) If the lifter fails or somehow the overflow box loses siphon, it will no longer drain water. In this instance the return pump will pump all the water from the last chamber in the sump into the display tank, likely flooding it. I'm not sure how others tackled this problem, but I elevated my return pump in the sump - in other words it doesn't sit at the bottom of the sump - I used eggcrate to build a platform a good 6-8 inches up off the bottom. This way if the overflow loses siphon and stops draining water into the sump the return pump can only pump about 3-4 inches of water from the last chamber back into the display tank. Since my last chamber is only 5 inches long by 12 inches deep the amount of water pumped back into my display tank would be negligable - then the pump would be exposed to air stopping flow.

I realize this is a lot to take in, but once you really start to tackle it, things will become more clear.

[Venom]

Haha well thanks for the encouragement Venom, I've only been fish keeping since mid January so I feel pretty noob asking questions sometimes . Be it that you are stalking this, if a sump is the route I do actually go I plan on making a full DIY thread chronicling my failures and eventual sucess...I hope...lol

No questions are stupid. Please always remember that. I've been fish keeping since long before I joined this board but I've never attempted to build a sump. I've also used to manage the Lfs for several years. One of our tanks had a sump, I can clean it but never had to build it. Heck I still ask questions.

The board is here to help

[Kage17]

I think I have a basic sorta understanding to move forward with. I'm designing the stand and such now, going to try to incorporate everything into one unit, build it all as a nice piece. Thanks for all the info Tom and Rush, really appreciate it! Onward to the journey that this is going to bring!

[Kage17]

One question I did have left that I can't seem to find a definitive answer on online: Do I need to provide filtration for the sump size or for the tank size? For my case do I need 40 gal, 125 gal, 165 gal of filtration?

[~RuSh~]

Don't think of the total volume as including the sump - it won't be completely full of water anyway. Just know that for sumps you want a turnover rate similar to that of a HOB - so you'll want an overflow that can drain at least 1200gph and a pump that can push probably 1500gph or more as you will have head loss.

[Kage17]

All the sumps I'm finding builds of via google and such they all have the filters/heaters/UV sterilizers(what is this and what's it do, do I need one?). However, none of them speicify which filter they are using and why they chose that size model for their sump filtration. I think I have the understanding of the purpose and construction of the actual sump itself now but I am comfused on how/what you do within the sump itself to clean the water as it flows through the sump before returning to the display tank. I.E. since I will be filtering within the sump itself what should I have to clean/filter the water, do I need a filter capable of a 125 gal tank or can I use my existing equipment?

[~RuSh~]

You don't need to add extra equipment to the sump, but it is an option.

An example - If I were in your shoes, I would start out by using several layers of eggcrate in the first chamber and line them with filter floss and padding - three layers kind of like coarse, medium and fine. This should eliminate the bulk of the free floating debris. Then the next chamber I'd want biofiltration - either bioballs or pot scrubbies, lots of them. Maybe I'd use both to fill the chamber completely. Then I'd put in a bubble wall and add some polyfil padding or some real fine floss to really polish the water before adding a good amount of seachem matrix to the last chamber. - If the design is thought out well this maze of mechanical and bio-filtration should leave the water returning to the display tank clean and sparkling.

Now you can add a UV sterilizer (eliminates free floating parasites, diseases, and some algaes by prolonged exposure to intense UV light) into that sump - all you need is powerhead and some tubing. People like sumps because you can add extra equipment to your system without hanging it off the display tank - keeping the display clean and simple. The heaters can go in the sump and you can also add reactors for things like carbon or chemipure but none of that is necessary. You don't need to hang HOB filters off the sump for filtration because the sump itself should be a massive filter.

The short answer is that a sump can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.

[Kage17]

Haha well I have some terms to research and find out becuase you may have well have been speaking chinese to me with the bioballs and all that noise . As time passes with my fish keeping I'm finding there is much more than balancing water levels and throwing some water through some filters and I'm digging it and up for the challenge. Thanks again for all your patience with me and the help Rush, I really do appreciate it and it has helped greatly, thank you!