(Not) Using Salt in your Oscar Tank

[Saluki]

I already posted this in the Salt thread, but I feel it is important enough to bear repeating. I am on a roll today.

It has already been beaten to death, but I will lay it out one more time clearly:

1. Salt is something that helps under certain circumstances (injury, some infections), but only under medicinal doses, which are much higher than most aquarists would use as a "tonic".

2. Salt used at medicinal dosages will mess up the osmotic processes of (non brackis) freshwater fish over the long term, and should only be used for short periods (a few weeks at most) for treatment of specific conditions.

3. It really does not matter what salt you use. Table salt will work, even if it is iodized. The iodine concentrations in table salt will not be harmful to your fish over the short term.

4. Some fish, particularly scaleless fish are particularly sensitive to salt and special care should be taken when treating problems with these fish. Generally, the dosages will need to be lower.

5. "Tonic" dosages, in other words dosages much lower than medicinal dosages used continuously, will not benefit your fish, and can cause potential problems if you are not very careful about keeping up with your dosing schedule. Salt does not evaporate. The only way it leaves your tank is through water changes. Keeping salt levels constant requires knowledge, recordkeeping, and consistancy. For these reasons, I strongly recommend against its use as a tonic.

6. In most cases, your tap water has plenty of minerals/electrolytes/etc. for your oscar.

[Kmuda]

All I can say is DITTO....

That about covers the subject.

[gyroflare]

thanks saluki.
didn't know all that before.

[Doc Bottom]

It'd be nice to have the actual dosage levels for 'tonic' and 'medicinal' listed on here.

[Saluki]

Dosages can vary, but I would roughly consider "tonic" dosages to be in the range of 1 ml dry volume NaCl per gallon H2O (1 teaspoon per 5 gallons). Medicinal dosages are usually on the order of 3 ml dry volume NaCl per gallon H2O (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) and up.

[alexisbrowne]

There is ONE caveat to using table and or Kosher salt.

You have to be VERY careful what the anti caking agent is.

If you buy cheap salt, they add yellow prussiate of soda (sodium Ferrocyanate.)

It can be deadly to aquatic life. Especially in a planted Discus tank for example.
Since acidic water and light will activate it...

Don't take my word for it PLEASE.

Look it up.

BTW,
I'm a chemist if it helps my credibility any...

[Saluki]

alexisbrowne: Do you have any links regarding this? My googling turned up a couple of generic warnings, but nothing that indicated an understanding of the chemistry involved.

[Fernus]

Theres a reason cheap salt is cheap, the anti caking agent is not just bad for fish it's not good for you either. I know some salt my friend brought had e numbers in which is never good in something that really shouldn't need it!
I've allways brought tonic salt from a reputable fish seller, allthough rocksalt ground up and stired in a bucket is supposed to be OK.
It's nice to see someone has put out the info on not putting salt in with fish without scales, I nearly killed my plec from listening to some info from a Garden Centre/Aquatics store. I've since learned to find someone who knows what their talking about(th guy I talk to has bred arrowana's etc and supplies certain garden centres, he won't supply the one's who don't listen or mistreat fish!
Fernus

[OscarBeast]

It seems that from what I have read, like with most things, there is an acceptable level of this stuff.

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodiu ... anide.html

I also found a quoted reference stating that this stuff is toxic to fish at 2ppm in water ways: Burdick and Lipscheutz C.A.
44:10939f (1950), if anyone would like to look it up.

So if the reference is accurate, then we would need to know how much of this stuff is used in salt, then do the math to see if a normal dose of salt adds anywhere near 2ppm in our tanks.

[Thunder336]

I may be way off here ( look for the original post on Salt ( if you could send me a link I would like to read it).. Are you saying that when you do a water change you should not add salt every time? Hope I am not asking a stupid question if so i am sorry...

[Kmuda]

There is no need to add Salt after every water change. Salt has its medicinal purposes and does a wonderful job of preventing nitrite poisoning in a cycling tank. But as a regularly added "tonic", it is not needed.

[Thunder336]

That's good to know I add it after every water change cycling or not (I am going thru a mini cycle I will use until it is over and no more after that) Never would have know that.. How often would you add salt on a regular bases ? Can you email me the link from the first article on this please thanks?

[OscarBeast]

How often would you add salt on a regular bases ?

Did you read the first post of this thread at all? This thread was warning against adding salt on a regular basis...

[Thunder336]

Yes I read it!! Maybe didn't understand all of it at first.. But you help clear that up Thanks!!

[meandbigo]

SO WHAT ABOUT STRESS AND HATCHING SHRIMP EGGS

[Kmuda]

Salt does nothing to appease stress. This is a "klingon" from an old myth that resulted from salts ability to prevent nitrite poisoning, which it does do, but only about 1/15th of a teaspoon per 10 gallons, per 1ppm of nitrite, is all that is needed for this purpose. And if you are not registering nitrite in you water, it is not needed.

Hatching Shrimp eggs, of course salt is needed. Brine Shrimp live in salt water.

The beneficial aspects of salt are real. But all of the benefits are already fulfilled by the contents of your tap water, which already contain enough electrolytes and "salts" to provide all of the supposed benefits. Only if you were using Distilled or R/O water would there be a need to add salt, and then, you would need to add much more than just salt.

A detailed article on the use of Salt can be found at the Skeptical Aquarist. It explains things much better than I can:
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/salt.shtml

[meandbigo]

WOW THANKS I DID NOT KNOW I WAS A MYTH I TRY NOT TO USE THAT OR ANY CHEMICALS IN MY TANKS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE

[Ragman]

thank you soo much I was using Salt every other water change. Thinkink i was helping, I now see not so much.

[Oscar&RugbyFan]

I read this thread over month ago, and would to share my experience:

Setup: One 15cm O in a 190 litre tank
PH 7.2- 7.4
Temp: 24-27c
70% Water change per week with Test Kit readings all sweet for the last four months, since I reestablished my tank.

Background: Four weeks back, I applied what was mentioned in this thread, and weened the salt out of the water changes (I previously added 1 teaspoon per 12 litres.) A little after 5 days of no salt, my O started going crazy at night and on several occassions cut himself on gravel and a rock fixture (Rock was taken out due to sharp edges to prevent further injury). I noticed in comparison that the wounds took longer to heal with no salt.

I put up with this for over a week, until a no longer had the heart to continously see my O injury himself, and decided to reintroduce salt back into my water changes. Within a three days, my O stopped dashing around at night, and hurting himself. Judging by an Old wound, his current wounds healed at least twice as fast with salt.

I do not mean to criticise or argue with any of reputable posters on this thread. I simply wish to state: I believe O's can, and do benefit from 'tonic' levels of salt. I may not have posted here much, but I have kept O's for nearly fifteen years. Up to a month ago, I have always added tonic levels of freshwater aquatic salt. One of my O's lived twelve+ years.

I might add that I live in Australia, and use bore(well) water +rain water for my water changes. So that might have something to do with salt being beneficial to a freshwater fish, like an O in my case. I hope you can appreciate that I have no idea what goes into North America tap water. So what might be true for you, might not be true for me.

Anyway, I thought I would put my two cents in.

Cheers

[New_Oscar_Guy]

adding "tonic" amounts of salt after water changes isnt really a big deal and wont harm you fish, it will actually keep them with a good slime coat, so it helps fend of any illness or what ever and salt will already be in there if they cut them selfs...

And this practice has been done in the aquarium trade for over 25-30years with no ill effect, although it doesn't have to be done it will have no ill effect on your fish and in most cases fish seem a little happier with a "tonic" dose of salt...

[t_chelle16]

adding "tonic" amounts of salt after water changes isnt really a big deal and wont harm you fish, it will actually keep them with a good slime coat, so it helps fend of any illness or what ever and salt will already be in there if they cut them selfs...

Salt and "protection." First, "Salt can aid in the production of the slime layer," you'll be told. And so could many water-born toxins or irritants, in fact. . . . . In the other way, these slime-secreting cells could be stimulated by an irritant. After all, many irritants and toxins trigger hormones., and salt in the water merely acts as an irritant. If you've ever inadvertently half-poisoned a fish, as I have, you know that one reaction of the fish to any stressful irritant is to increase mucus production. It is true that the increased flow of mucus can help slough off incipient parasites. To this extent, you could justify saying that salt in the water "protects the fish from parasites." I find this to be stretching a point. Salting the water to increase the mucus layer is like putting a drop of lemon juice in your dry eye to make it water.

-Chelle

[New_Oscar_Guy]

ha ha I like that last bit it bold because adding a tonic amount of salt to your aquarium doesnt hurt your fish, they wont go all crazy smashing and rubbing them selves on everything.

I my self use 1.8 cups of salt roughly 30tbs to my 150gal and none of my fish show any signs of irritation or pain. Like you would see if you put lemon juice in your eye.

Yes if you add too much salt to the aquarium then yes they will be irritated but if you add the right amount it will just increase the slim coat and that is it...

[Kmuda]

Then please explain how salt aids a slime coat without being an irritant? If not the fact that salt is an irritant, what mechanism involved results in an increased slime coat?

[New_Oscar_Guy]

with the right amount of salt added there is a slight irritation that increases the slime coat but once the slime coat has increased then they aren't irritated anymore.

after a water change and I am replacing the salt that was removed all of my fish swim into the new salt as I pour it in, so obviously it isn't that bad of an irritant or they would run and hide or start freaking out.

A tonic dose of salt isn't enough to burn or injure most fish if not all fish, but if you start adding large amounts of salt to your FW tank then you will start seeing some trouble(i dont know first hand I am just guessing). My Pleco isn't even bothered in my tank with a tonic amount of salt...

So short answer is yes salt does irritate your fish, but only until their slime coat has increased, then the salt just keeps the slime coat up.

If salt was really that bad, why would we use it to treat sick fish? well a tonic amount is like a preemptive dose to prevent illness and infections....

Tonic dose of salt vs. Lemon juice in the eye

Lemon juice in the eye = Burning and sever pain witch serves no purpose.
Tonic Dose of salt = Slight irritation mainly felt as a slight tingle, Purpose increasing slim coat to prevent illness.

That is just how that comparison adds up...

[t_chelle16]

And why exactly does a fish need to produce even more slime than it would normally? After all of these millions of years of evolution, they still haven't figured out how to produce enough on their own? What do those poor fishes in the wild do w/o us humans dumping a bunch of salt into their nasty, saltless, fresh water? Poor fishies. We should all grab our salt shakers and empty them into the nearest body of water.

-Chelle