Is it a wound or a disease?

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Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:49 pm

Hello All:

I have a 3 year old Oscar named Sherman who has had a fleshy open wound on his nose for the past month now. I'm not sure if it is a wound or something more serious. Sometimes it looks raised above his skin and like this pic, it looks cratered. It doesn't seem to be healing and looks like it is getting larger. Has anyone seen this before with their Oscar and if so, what did you do? I would appreciate any feedback. Below is a picture i just took of him.

Thanks,

David


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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby OscarPhil » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:50 am

Hi David, I'm not exactly sure whether its a wound or an infection, I'll start though by asking you this..

1. tank size and (if any) fellow inhabitants?

2. Water parameters? - Ammonia, nitrIte, and nitrAte.

3. anything in the tank the O could have possibly cut itself on?

4 how often are your water changes?


Now keep in mind, most injuries/infections can be taken care of by getting on top of the water conditions.. but if the tank is to small, or overstocked to high, it'll only get worse. if its water quality problem then you'll easily be able to help the O, tank size/companion problems, that'll be a little more tricky.

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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Kmuda » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:27 am

Wounds that will not heal are indications that a bacterial infection has taken hold.

OscarPhil's questions are very relevent. Unless the water quality is under control, there is little chance of healing as there is a direct relationship between a fish's immune system and the levels of nitrate in the water. To prevent problems from occuring, you want to maintain nitrates under 20ppm. But once damage is done, to allow healing, you need to get (and keep) nitrates below 10ppm for the duration of healing.

So if you are not measuring for nitrate, that is the first place to start. Use of medications without first getting nitrates low is a waste of effort and money.

Once you get nitrates under control (assuming they are an issue), the fish might heal on it's own. If it does not, I would recommend my Bacterial Pitting Treatment.

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/h ... tment.html
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby ~RuSh~ » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:23 am

Welcome to the Forum David.

I agree with the others here. We need a bit of info from you to help you out properly. It's difficult to tell exactly what is going on with just that picture. Any chance of more pics? From the side or different angles?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:08 am

Thanks for the replies. The water parameters are:

PH - 7.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10-20 (tested twice)

Sherman is in a 55 gallon aquarium with a blood parrot. I do water changes every two weeks of about 40%. He might have bumped into the corner of the Penguin bio wheel filter casing. I should round that corner edge out. I've slacked a few times these past few months and missed a week on water changes. I need to get back on track and get the nitrates back down again.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Tom » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:34 am

Your nitrate readings are surprisingly low for the stocking coupled with tank size and water change regimen IMO.
Were your readings taken after a water change?
It looks like a wound to me, but I still recommend you up the amount of water you change to at least 60% every week.
At least until it heals up.
I'd also does with 1 tbsp of kosher/aquarium salt per 5 gallons while it heals.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:12 am

It's been 10 days since the last water change. I feed him once a day 10 large pellets of the Hikari Gold and every once in a while they get bloodworms. I've started adding salt now after reading some posts on it. Tomorrow i'll do a large water change to get the nitrates down.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby OscarPhil » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:36 pm

A single Oscar needs 55 gallons to itself, and the parrot about the same i think (I'm not expierenced with them, but i know they get a decent bioload). now, i recommend getting rid of all sharp objects in the tank, and either rehoming the parrot, or getting a new tank for it.

you should be doing minimum of a 50% WC a week with one oscar in the 55 gallon. I honestly cannot recommend keeping the two together in a 55 gallon tank. its putting the bioload way to hi, and it can very soon result in terratorial issues.. in which case the parrot wouldn't last long.



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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby 1oscar » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:39 pm

I agree with OscarPhil.

I would re-home one of the two, and take all sharp objects out of the Oscar tank.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby partymarty » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:22 am

A wound should heal in a matter of days. Well they do on Jaws anyway. I just add the recommended dose of melafix and they heal in under a week.

Jaws is always gouging himself in his futile attempts to get at my ghost knife fish's food - which is placed in some rocks with smaller than oscar sized caves.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:34 pm

I've been using the Melafix for the past three weeks without any success. A couple of days ago puss came out of the wound as he chomped down on a cube of blood worms. Has anybody used Fish Mox? If so, would you recommend it? I appreciate the feedback from everyone.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Kmuda » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:14 pm

You are dealing with a bacterial ailment. You first need to perform a pair of back to back water changes and then dose with the medications mentioned in the bacterial pitting article I referenced in my initial post in this thread, following the water change schedule identified in that treatment.

MelaFix/PimaFix will have no affect on these types of things. I am not familiar with Fish Max. I do know the medications specified in the article have a history of curing these types of things when combined with the totality of treatment specified in that article.

Absent proper treatment, this will eventually become lethal. You are fortunate the bacteria has not already begun infecting the internal organs of the fish.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby scrivz » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:41 pm

Fish Mox is amoxicillin, a penicillin-type antibiotic. For the bacteria that are generaly recognized as causing ailments like your O has (their genus names are Aeromonas and Pseudomonas), penicillins are going to be a lot less effective than aminoglycosides. What Kmuda is suggesting is a course of two aminoglycosides and an aldehyde, which will almost certainly be more effective against Pseudomonas and Aeromonas than amoxicillin would be.

Here's Kmuda's link that was posted above: http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/healthdisease/117-bacterial-pitting-treatment.html
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:57 am

I just ordered the Seachem meds from Amazon. Thanks for the help!
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:42 am

I've just ended the 3rd week of Kmuda's treatment and the sore has gotten bigger and now is more raised. I'm going to start back on the Neoplex tomorrow. He's still in good spirits and eats heartily. Any help getting Sherman cured would be appreciated!

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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby scrivz » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:17 am

If you've gotten through all the meds in Kmuda's treatment plan and it's no better, then there's a chance this isn't bacterial. The other option is to treat with a different family of antibiotics in case it's bacterial but resistant to aminoglycosides. A quinolone would be great, but unless you want to get a vet involved that's not an option. Minocycline (maracyn-two) might be a good next step. Maracyn plus (a sulfa drug plus trimethoprim) would be another option,but is less likely to be effective than the minocycline.

Honestly though, if you've made it through Kmuda's treatment and try minocycline with no improvement, there's a good chance it's not a bacterial problem. A virus could cause something like that, and a fungating tumor could probably look like that too, especially if it's raised. It's possible it's a highly resistant bacteria, but again,you'd need a vet involved to eval and treat it if that's the case.

Is there any chance he could be re-injuring it on a regular basis?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Capt Dave » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:54 pm

try soaking his foor in vitamins and garlic. This may boost fishes natural immune system and help with healing. I am not sure if it is too late or not but it cant hurt ya know??
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Kmuda » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:30 pm

I would tend to agree that it is a reocurring injury. What type of decorations are in the tank? What type of filters?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:50 am

I'm using the penguin 330 biowheels. There isn't a lot in the tank for him to bump into. He's still eating fine and acting normal. But for how long, who knows... Here's an updated pic showing the sore getting larger. I guess I could give Maracyn two a shot.

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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby scrivz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:42 am

Is that sore actually fungating, or is it just my imagination? Like, is the red, angry tissue lumped up higher than the base of the sore?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby Kmuda » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 am

Is it possible food is getting behind the Penguins outflow lips and he's repeatedly injuring himself trying to get to it?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:50 pm

Yes, it is raised above the sore and growing upward.

It is a possibility that that he may be bumping into it. I filed down the corner edges on the lips to round them out. I'm going to flip the heater and the filter to keep him from getting back there and see if that helps. It's worth a shot, thanks!
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby scrivz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:27 pm

Fungating masses commonly points towards malignant or viral causes. However, I suppose it might be possible that with repeat injuries he's just getting a ton of granulation tissue building up (though it doesn't look like it to me).

I almost wonder if hitting that thing with silver nitrate would do anything for it... Now, that's pure speculation, but without getting a biopsy and a $200-300 pathology report I doubt we're going to find out what this is.
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby daker73 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Hello All!

I went to answer.com to ask their expert about what they thought would cure Sherman. I referred that person to this forum and he responsed. Also with a compliment on your responses :D . Here is their response:

You have received an Answer!
From TROPICAL FISH AFICIONADOFriday, March 18, 2011 8:56 AM EST

Hi David.

I read through the forum and the advice you received was very good and also quite accurate.

I do believe this is a bacterial ulcer that Sherman has and if I may add one that is acting most stubborn as it appears to be resistant to the multitude of treatments you have tried.

In a case like this one I would recommend the use of a medicine called Potassium Permanganate which is the ultimate medicine but its drawback is that if not dosed properly it can kill a fish which is why I do not freely recommend its use but this case definitely calls for it.

Listed below is a link, click on it, which will supply you with an overview of Potassium Permanganate. Note: the link is from a pond site but this infomation applies to tropical fish too. When administering the product it's of the utmost importance to follow the directions on the product label for proper usage/dosage instructions because as mentioned prior if not dosed properly it can kill the fish.

Potassium Permanganate can be purchased online and at some drugstores and hardware stores.

David I truly believe this is the only remedy that will effect a cure.

Good luck!

http://www.pondcrisis.com/a_potassiumpermanganate.html



So....what do you think, and have you heard anything about Potassium Permanganate?
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Re: Is it a wound or a disease?

Postby ~RuSh~ » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:49 pm

... Beyond my scope of medicinal treatments... if you go through with this, keep us updated. It's definitely something worth following up on. Good luck. :lthumb:
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